Interview with Cheryl Penn

- I've read that your handwriting is really difficult to read. When does asemic writing begin and end?

Thanks for this opportunity to put my thoughts into words Piotr - it's a good exercise. I just want to say from the outset that although I have an academic background, much of work is done outside these parameters of learned knowledge. By this I mean, there MAY be theoretical references/guidelines, but my work and thoughts are mostly intuitive. As I have not formally addressed quite a few of the questions you raise, my views may change rapidly J!

Asemic writing - (we all know this): Exploration of the term ‘asemic writing’, reveals that there are very few variations in definition. It is generally perceived to be wordless writing, with open, or no semantic content. This means that it may actually be part of a preliterate phase, although it is often relegated to a post-literate phase. Pre-literate is lost when obtaining legibility. It’s almost the return to abstraction when very able artists - I think of Picasso started to shed reality in order to find an essence. One can replicate reality - and then what? One can write, and then what? How does the language artist use writing as subject matter? It cannot appear as ‘words’/phrases on a canvas - it appears as sentimental or obvious (not that I am against either in the right context); therefore writing becomes abstracted. Creative investigation into WRITING I think will naturally abstract it. Let me say too - a lot of what we see is without concept or philosophy, it appears just decorative - again, no problem with that, but the work has no depth and I think this lack is what causes many arguments as to the validity of this art form. So perhaps that's the beginning of asemic writing - before the start of legibility? Its end…we haven’t got there yet! Perhaps we will end up with minimalist works like Korean (1962 and 1963) by Jo Baer.

Through primary school we are all taught to write in a uniform way, but strangely, this drawing form has a life of its own. It’s not long before each student has his or her own interpretation of the alphabet and as adults; it is not unusual for many to return to a scribble form. So that would confirm the notion that asemic writing happens in many instances before even learning to write legible script?

I would take this to mean that it’s essence is childlike and intuitive, an abstract expression of what children see adults do. As their verbal skills may still be largely unformed when this play begins to occur, one could infer that the child’s intention is to communicate, but in a very personal way - a self informed way. A child’s line of writing scribbles may not even resemble letters or words, and as they can speak before learning to write, they attend to wholeness first (the lines) rather than singular units (letters). Learning to write, as we all remember, is a lengthy and complex process, bound by blue lines and particular size requirements. How I battled to conform and even now, the sight of official, tiny blue or green blocks into which I have to squash my garrulous, unruly letters becomes a cause for alarm.

Children also employ a multisensory approach. I term this ‘the zone’. I see it when students are working on an art piece they are completely engrossed with - they hone in as more senses are engaged, and they become one with what they are doing: concentration is sharpened as a faintly trancelike state is achieved. Asemic writing works the same way for me. My writing IS difficult to read - and that was done on purpose J - I had a LOT to say about a great deal of things, but they are secret things - things which need to be written, but not read. So, I just adjust the legibility of my writing in order to be understood - or not - depends on the audience. My writing is then a fluid space, dependent on recipient.

An important point here for me: many have said that asemic writing, because it has no semantic content has no meaning. I beg to differ here in terms of my own practice. This is of course where the discussions, contentions and debate enter the fray. What is asemic writing? How does the individual describe it, as opposed to a collective definition? Is it only asemic when it has no meaning? Does the vacuum of meaning asemic writing is intended to address mean that because I write with meaning that it is therefore not asemic writing, even though it is illegible? Is asemic writing just an extension of visual poetry? Is it possible that because I write with illegible intention, but with intention none-the-less, I leave no space for the viewer? Of course not! I know I create two types of asemic writing - the asemic glyph which is loaded with conceptual meaning - (I definitely load it - if the reader cares to load it - or not is not mine to determine), and illegible but meaning-filled script. An example of asemic glyphs would be the Bhubezi Alphabet.

- Over two hundred people sent their mail art to the exhibition "Mail Art Makes the World a Town" organized by you. How did you do that?

In 2010 I joined IUOMA - International Union of Mail Artists (Ruud Janssen, Netherlands). This move proved key to about 3 years of intense personal artistic growth and international outreach. Mail Art in South Africa is not a common practise at all - it’s very time consuming, demanding (if you want to be on top of the game) and, if you follow an unspoken rule - you return artwork when you are sent artwork. If one is generous with the network, it is very generous back, and in two years I had a massive amount of correspondents and was the proud owner of BOXES of Mail Art - all of which was viewed with my eyes only…I brought some South African artists into the ring, but sadly, I am not in contact with anyone in South Africa who is still a part of this practice.

Anyway, I decided to share the wonderful gleanings in the form of an exhibition. Something which still remains today as a result of that exhibition (as far as I am aware the only one of its kind in South Africa), is the assembly book - Mail Art Makes the World a Town - I borrowed the phrase from the Novgorod Codex - see: http://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=3909

 # 18 of this publication is about to be assembled. I will stop at 20 as that appears to be a good number and postage has become prohibitive. Some parts of the world are also charging for postal collections and some items are returned - Argenita for example is proving difficult. The assembly book collection has given the most intruiging results and some artists such as TICTAC (Germany) have participated from the beginning.

She and I still maintain very close artistic communication as I am in complete admiration of her work.

Another offshoot has been The New Alexandrian Library. I have one of the biggest collections of Artists Books in South Africa. I think there are over 1000.

http://www.cherylpenn.com/Mail_Art_Makes_The_World_a_Town___Catalogue_by_Cheryl_Penn_(South_Africa).pdf

- What is the key to good communication in experimental art?

Communication through successful, experimental art (I use this term in its imprecise definition except to say it is the exploration of new ideas in order to extend the boundaries of ‘art’) lies in the ability to adequately express the very personal realm of the subconscious. That I think, may be a key to success: it should be conceived and presented in a personal way, without resorting to shock value. It should be technically sound - by this I mean: those who try to pass off badly made, ill-conceived works as ‘experimental’, should rather keep those experiments as part of a visual diary and not expose the work to the public until the ‘experiment’ is ‘successful’. One does not feed a bad baking experiment to the public - ones’ close companions may be subjected to a ‘taste and tell’, but not the public. I would define ‘experimental’ as the making of thoughts flesh. Being able to communicate thoughts, realizing them from the abstract to reality. The result of a thought must be accessible - if that is ones intention. As I said, sometimes I wish to remain ambiguous, but in saying that I am still communicating in a respectful way to an audience who I hope will gain SOMETHING from what they are viewing. Very importantly, successful experimental art should have a conceptual/philosophical underpinning. I realise that may offend many, but nothing for nothings sake is not to my taste.

- Can you tell us something about your biggest solo artistic project?

I have had solo exhibitions, but I am essentially a collaborator - I far prefer the sound of an enormous choir and the impact it makes to a piping solo - no matter how beautiful. There is a power and togetherness that lies in working collaboratively. So my ‘solo-ness’ often lies in being the conceiver, executor, collector and curator of a collaborative project. For example, my biggest work (still ongoing) is An Encyclopedia of Everything. This is a collection of nearly 600 small books which deal with EVERYTHING.

See: https://an-encyclopedia-of-everything.blogspot.com

I have swopped book for book through this body of work, so I have made A LOT OF BOOKS! This goes back to your previous question - how does one successfully communicate through experimental art? Books for me are the perfect medium for experimental art - and vade mecums are even better still. Not all ideas are good, but all ideas crave a voice. In giving an idea a platform, one leaves space for better things to emerge - creative strangeness which often are hidden behind an intial thought.

Having said that, on the day you sent this list of questions I had decided to have another solo SOLO exhibition. This will take place D.V. at Eye4Art Gallery, opening 31 August as an ‘event’.

P.S. - the exhibition was VERY successful - for which I am grateful. It involved paintings with 15 layers per work. Yes - I suffer from ADHD!

Come to think of it, I have another very large project which is a few years old - The Authentic Massacre of the Innocent Image. I do paintings - some upwards of 3 meters long and cut them up. I will do a ‘performance’ - I’m not sure if I like that word - called The Sacrilage of Van Gogh on that day where I cut a very laboriously produced copy of Starry Starry Night into 24 pieces. I have cut up 105 paintings! There are pieces of my work all over the world, and quite a few are used as book cover for handmade books. I worked out that's nearly 200 square meters of work.

Another collection of books as I mentioned earlier is The New Alexandrian Library. This too is a collection of artists books - mostly unique, or limited editions where I have swopped with artists all around the world. I have literally hundreds of books to document - I think it will take me a lifetime - sadly, but I will put out a catalogue of at least 60 of them when I get a minute.

http://newalexandrianlibrary.blogspot.com

- I've watched a report about #FeesMustFall student strike in South Africa on Al Jazeera. What do you think about paying for studies?

To be honest I left lecturing at University because of politics - internal and student! I think studying is a privilege which comes at a cost because it has a value, but I think I will leave my thoughts there. I don't ‘do’ politics, although I do ‘do’ religion. I miss the days of constructive and respectful debate, before everything became politicized.

- You teach lots of courses, visual poetry, asemic writing... Is your teaching a form of promotion of experimental art?

Very definitely, but more than that, I think it is a gateway to intuitive creative freedom. There is always a product, but for me, as a process based practitioner, process opens many doors to intuitive thinking. The cross-pollination of disciplines creates new thinking patterns and allows successful movement from the concrete to the abstract and back again. The subject matter of my courses is writing - it could have been portraiture/landscape, but everyone can write - and have a personal form of handwriting, created from their own brain-eye-hand action. The following will give you an idea - it comes from my summation notes on the first module:

In the introductory class we saw that portraits operate on many levels, using different techniques. Although we are creating art, we are using a landscape of language to explore the visual image.

We are using words - their look and feel - their power to give a palimpsest quality to artwork. We have discussed the liminal space in depth: what is its function?

How does it function? What anxious, but exciting journeys open up for us in this space? A good thing to remember is that every searching person has liminal spaces in their lives. These spaces (the distance between what we know and don’t know, or the unploughed tract between where we are, to where we wish to be) exist in everyone’s lives: the trick is to grant them a voice. As soon as we acknowledge ‘I don’t know’, we begin the journey ‘to know’. 

We discussed the abundant metaphor of the seed, the fact that it is the promise of life, a liminal space where, with the right treatment, something miraculous happens. 

The courses are very experimental in nature, and some people balk at my methodologies, (which includes narrative therapy techniques) not quite GETTING their experimental nature - until they DO get it! I have wonderful success stories - which is great to me. Every time I give I class I take it too - I am teacher and participant, so I am as much involved in the process as everyone else. In fact, on Saturday an architect wrote and said that two years later she is still unpacking what she learnt on this different sort of journey.

- How can a hobbyist be a great artist?

Yes - by becoming proficient in their craft and expanding their own boundaries of what constitutes ‘ordinary’.

- When I had a short lecture at our library, I said that I'm a little bit afraid to say what you do to books. I mean Altered Books. How do people react to this kind of activity?

That makes me smile J . I had a friend who owned a paper recycling plant. I went through a tour of the factory and got the fright of my life! There were MOUNTAINS - and I’m not exaggerating of books with people sitting at the foot of these mountains tearing them apart from the spine. I immediately rescued the few I could (I caught a plane home) and these are the books I alter. They were ‘rescue books’. I was not allowed to even have them - so they were reborn into something else. I think it is a gift to take a discarded book and reuse it/re-purpose it into a unique artwork.

- I understand your Vispro as visual prose, that is prose that should be looked at, and not read. How would you like the field to develop? Do you think it can be widely recognized? And do you think I could use elements of visual prose in my neopoemics?

I coined the term ‘vispro’ because I was not satisfied with my work being categorized as vispo - visual poetry. In fact, I’m uncertain what ½ of the work categorized as vispo has to do with poetry. It feels more like prose most of the time, accompanied by an image of some sort - hence the new phrase. I’m not sure if it will be widely recognized now - perhaps I should have done more homework, but I was feeling quite strongly about that particular segregation one strange morning. Sometimes, as I’ve written before, its good to just give voice to an idea and expose others who may be interested to it and see where it goes from there? I WISH I had more time to explore the idea further - and I do, everyday that I work, but the theory of it will have to wait - as you said - too much to do! Neopoemics, which explores the territory of visual poetry and experimental comics (as I understand it) already seems to use shortened prose formats. Cross pollination of ideas, sharing and collaborations can only enhance ones own perceptions if correctly fed - like many clean rivers running into an endless turquoise sea, which will never be full, for evaporation structures clouds which restructure water, and on the cycle goes.

The wise man said “there is no new thing under the sun” and I think that is absolutely true. I also teach the history of language and writing in the course I run - understanding the history of anything allows us to contextualise ourselves, not matter how far we have gone from the source. I think that's an important thing though - NOT to stray too far from the source. The source is our own private engine of creativity, which ultimately is our own responsibility not to ‘pollute’. By this I mean maintaining integrity to the creative calling. I think vispro has actually developed itself, without being coined as a phrase?

While stating at the outset that I am not bound in my work to theory, although I know a lot of it, so this appears contradictory, much work is needed to formalize the elements/catagories of vispo in order for it to survive it’s history I think. Again, I know there is a perception that everything is a ‘free-for-all’, and people get offended by parameters, but I think such things enhance knowledge as there is something to push against.

- You wrote once about creating a mythology. Can you tell us something about it?

You brought up another of my favorite, neglected solo artistic works! One which I have taken out, and dusted off for the upcoming exhibition - so thank you. The Bhubezi Mythology (Bhubesi is ‘lion’ in Zulu) is the story of the Women Who Hold Up the World.

See: https://bhubezi.blogspot.com/

Basically it is the story of 10 women (at first there were 8) who are taken from history in one or another way, and it tells the TRUE story of these mystery women: Mona Lisa, Hatshepsut, Pandora, Magenta, Lyrech (that's me - my name spelt backwards as the scribe) - with her assistant Pehemefer the Egyptian, Hypatia, (from the Alexandrian Library), Empress Zhangsun, Shahrazad (from 1001 Nights), Cynisca (a Spartan woman who broke into the male olympic games and won a gold in her first chariot race) and The Traveller. There are a varity of assorted guardians of these women including the Global Flaneur, Pilot, Singer to Sleep, Tokoloshi, The Red Giraffe, Lammasseu - and not too many others that I can think of. The mythology involves their REAL origins - for example Pandora. She did not like the advances of a prominent townsman, so he slated her and blamed her for all the evils in the world by saying she was the origin of evil. In reality, she was the one who gave us blue butterflies and the Charlston.

Here follows the article for the limited edition catalogue for Letters to Spring:

The Bhubezi Mythology begins with the unraveling of a unique book titled The Chronicles of Lyrehc, found quite by accident in 2008 by a researcher in an unused library repository at the Durban City Hall. What follows is the story as best deciphered by the researcher who wishes to remain anonymous. The following has been garnered from her notes:

"The Bhubezi Tribe, a race of warrior women has been here far longer than we, living among us when need be, but generally inhabiting another 'olam'". They had migrated from the center of the earth to Durban (Nabrud) where, in the area of the Durban City Hall they constructed a transport machine with which they could do intergalactic travel.

Colonial architects designed and built the Durban City Hall, a classic neo-baroque structure right on that spot in the early 1900’s. Once the solid, physical structure of the City Hall was in place, the transport machine became increasingly difficult to use. This was due in part, to the extensive subatomic deconstruction of body molecules needed to bypass the monolithic edifice. Eventually, only one woman could do this - The Transporter. 

But all that is lost in the annuls of time. It appears as though the result of several attempts to use the machine in order to repair the Pillars of the World has resulted in Magenta and Sienna being lost Between. Their attempts to fix The Bridge at the divide requires certain KEYS. Since that time, others have cottoned on and an entire litany of people, some known to you, and some not, have entered the battle to save the Bridges Between. There are only two extant books relating to this mythology, Volume 1 (The Chronicles of Lyrehc) and Volume 2, which is on display for the exhibition. Whoever chooses this book, or rather, whoever this book chooses, will find themselves entwined within the mythology, voyaging with The Traveller and daydreaming with The Red Giraffe.

Just to let you know, history, much of it, should be re-written, but it’s convenient that it remains as is. This way, the Women Who Hold Up the World work undetected at keeping society functioning in a hostile world; they keep familes together while LIFE attempts to tear all the goodness from within fragile (more fragile than you would ever believe) human structures. We only have a feeble grasp anyway. You’d be SURPRISED at the people who have traversed the pages of history and who are part of this story: Leonardo da Vinci, Mona Lisa, Pandora, van Gogh, Hatshepsut: Hapshetsut - there’s and interesting person - let me just fill you in on some details regarding this Egyptian Pharoah-ess.

Hatshepsut is said to have reigned for 22 years - but of course we know this is not the case (refer Chronicles of Lyrehc). In EXACTLY 1510 BC, Hatshepsut had the vision of the loss of the Bridges Between. Together with Ineni the great architect, it became her ambition to build structures, which would house articles needed for Bridge repair. The buildings and their important contents would need to last (human time) until the appearance of the Red Giraffe and the Traveller - and appear they did - (See The Authentic Massacre of the Innocent Image, Paintings # 65, # 66 and #67). But lest I overwhelm you at this stage, I’ll leave the story here - after all, another portrait of this Bhubezi Queen WILL be found and the chronicle will continue. As for Hatshepsuts Needle - that's another WHOLE story!

For the exhibition, van Gogh and his younger brother were involved - the REAL Starry Night had to disappear into the hands of as many people as possible. It was a performance piece.:

The Sacriledge of Van Gogh

I’m sure you’ve read of Vincent’s tempestuous relationship with his brother Theo. But are you one of the few who know there was a third Van Gogh brother, Cornelius, who was raised in the Netherlands, but worked, married and died in South Africa - (don't believe all those

facts you read either). If you did know this, you DIDN’T know that Theo sent the painting The Starry Starry Night to Cornelius in 1890, just prior to his very suspicious death. It was sent that he could be the official custodian of this work, vital to mending the Bridges Between. Have you every wondered why Van Gogh painted like he did? He could actually SEE the portals to Between.

Back to Cornelius; in 1889, at the age of 22 Cornelius came to South Africa working as an engineer, first for the Cornucopia Gold Company in Germiston and then for the Nederlandsche Zuid-Afrikaansche Spoorweg-Maatschappij in Pretoria. He died (as history goes) during the Boer Wars, but actually, he was held as a prisoner of the Moorish Derwish until the end of the Second World War. He died, never revealing the hiding place of The Starry Starry Night. I cannot reveal how I came into possession of this artwork, but I have it in my custody as you see before us today. I also have a letter written to me by Cor Van Gogh, giving me instructions as to the fate of this fabled painting.